Interpreting Shariah Law Across The Centuries 

This is fresh air gross is a movement in america can ban sharia law and islamic law when in ten states have introduced bills are passed laws intended to ban it but what exactly is sharia law my guess adopted country tries to answer that in his new book heaven on earth a journey through sharia law from the deserts of ancient arabia to the streets of the modern muslim world as part of his research he traveled to south asia iran and the middle east country is also the author of a book about western law called the trial a history from socrates to o.j. simpson is a human rights barrister in england as his master 's degree from harvard and is qualified as a new york attorney his father is from india one of the countries country travel to on researching the book seductive country welcome to fresh air when you want to write about the history of sharia law while the old souls of reasons actually i am a power supply background also muslim by bus and done i've written about before about west and legal history i've been curious about syria before but actually michael's crystallized as result of a cup of our inauspicious events i was in new york on september eleventh of the time i was writing my lost book about western cruel justice and while i was watching it people to start to talk about islam islamic rule and although it didn't change the folks of my book is that the maybe think about the subject and then the book was published in london in april two thousand five hundred three months lights of the bombings of july the seventh happened here in london and sli system in the subway system in london and again that people talk about islam islamic for the shorty and people saying also said different things about on one hundred adults of people who sang while islam is all about pieces religion of peace is a religion of understanding and then a lot of people who said it's clearly hateful it refers it was a will happen on september eleventh now receiving in on the more technical doing of on the subway and i just wanted what what the apostles was of the house to be an old success seminars and was interested in the subject and people just seem to be arguing about islam islam ignore the sharia without actually getting the substance of what was without decided because of my background because i come from muslim backgrounds and the play people i could also stop to my father my father is also not i asked him love you what is the shiny what does it say where was it written down and he didn't really have any adequate houses as far as i was concerned he is abusive well you know it's it's it's it's what god is god 's will not need that need to be told that and the more i lost more i realized that people to seek the ignorant muslims even seem to be ignored then letting the people who were attacking it without without 9/11 talking about and so i think that preconceptions of people have about sharia law that if this body of law item book of love that basically tells when you should stone people to death when you should amputate their lands and force women to her body veils on is that what sharia law in nine starts old but in this this show via as a word means policy instituted the original meeting was a path towards the almost exact hebrew equivalent in fact the hamas cock device in the english equivalent the strike not run it means that the white path to follow effect often you should follow if you want to attain salvation spiritual concept it's it's an idea of the right thing to do on there is another webinar bake of what thick which means jurisprudence it means understanding it means human approximations of how you get to party followed up off our you which attain salvation and is denying that the fix the human interpretations of the sharia do contain some very repressive rules that are interpretations of the sharia would set to justify stoning adulterers to death wish to justify the concealment of women behind jobs and and vials which to justify the execution of apostates and less famous but those are just interpretations of the sharia and as far as i was concerned while writing the book is very very important tool distinction between the two things because the outages tend to get so confuse these days between people who attacked the study when actually what they want to be attacked is a hard-line interpretations of islamic rule and by attacking the sharia is the huge amount of mistrust incomprehension is is created between muslims and non-muslims because as far as a devout muslims concerned that on the sharia is effectively an attack on gold and islamic law based on what what's in the quran.

Ultimately yes box that such not the only source if you look at the ground the quran has for punishment fence is entitled at none of it doesn't doesn't does not single non- discreet death sentence in the quran atoll of the capital offenses and most of the root measures which are nowadays regarded by many non-muslims is as repressive or muscle come from the piece of the saw reports about the profit of the profit incentive fulton said in date but none of the things i try to shine my boots is that the dates when written down for two centuries until off to the prophet 's death it was not until the ninth century that the hadith 's action tendency like a definitive form and there'll be thousands of reports about the profits life and they're all set to do switch to justify bottom punishment like the study of adulterers which incidentally is something that appears in the carotid sold on the role safety switch emphasize the need for my see the need for restraint the need for discretion as well as countless other subjects and most of the study concerning criminal matches a compulsion told my studies concerning how you should pray how you should wash good matters of mealtimes also serve strange note things as well in the dark activity switch on which lay down recipes for medicines eighth and ninth centuries of medicines nine tribes r&d switch on which identifies the location of the antichrist the switch one about the signs of the loss date it's a huge oral tradition which was set down in the ninth century on which was then by some people transformed into compulsion rules so anybody trying to follow the use would have to be selective in choosing which ones are to follow yet it's completely orthodox and always has been among muslims that motorola had these authentic there are thousands of the rates would be ritually impossible to follow them because because benjamin directed contradict each other so you have to make choices and muslims happy making choices for all the history for the full two hundred years the application of islamic always been a question of choice and what's happened over the last forty years is that in certain places hardliners have a comes before the sun back twenty years you mean put a ring in revolution will actually install to nineteen similarly nineteen seventies in libya peterson enough colonel gadhafi was the was the first person outside saudi arabia to introduce islamic criminal penalties and then in nineteen seventy nine you had pakistan introducing islamic criminal penalties than those iranian revolution well we all know what happened and of course at the end of nineteen seventy nine is illegible honest on him which kicked off no end of trouble and throughout the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties and the two thousands on the infraction extension of the number of countries which which claims to apply the harsher interpretations of islamic role but if you come back to talk to center the only country in the world that even claim to apply the shoddy enfold with saudi arabia and that was a pretty sick form of pressure was extremely strict form the sharia and still love it yet but it still has yet and the and and that it wasn't something which was regarded as particularly orthodox at the time it sorely onto just about thankfully to is too young to remember nineteen seventy but i suddenly i remember the late nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties and and saudi arabia was a plywood for extremism than among and within the muslim community itself and it's it's it's it's made great strides in certain sections of the muslim world since then that doesn't that still doesn't mean that it's orthodox it's a attribute creature modality of creature tradition when you said you would mean the traditional gaming well one thing i realized i was traveling on was the oldest how closely associate these hard-line interpretations of islamic rule all with political consummation of political turmoil at that it's the the the countries where it caution temptations of islamic law strongest the countries which are going to recruiters and wolves and revolutions almost without exception fact a thing without exception on their there isn't a country anywhere in the world which has been applying muslim rules continually from hundreds of years in which one which is going on genuine traditions it's it's a revival of supposed traditions which actually doesn't really pay very much heed to history is told in this of those people who'd say nowadays that starting the starting of adult chooses cogswell and that and that the most important thing seduced to focus on the half interpretations of the sharia am simply on paying heed to the right history if you just joining us my justice adopted country he's the author of the new book heaven on earth a journey through sharia law from the deserts of ancient arabia to the streets of the modern muslim world he's a a barrister and in england let's separate i will talk some more about the history and contemporary practice of sharia law is fresh air if you're just joining us were talking about sharia law i guess the docket country is a barrister in england and the author of the new book heaven on earth a journey through sharia law from the deserts of ancient arabia to the streets of the modern world are the punishable offenses that are mentioned in the koran and what what what are the punishments for those offenses there a need for matt which and which may demand in the quran theft is made punishable by tatian of the right hand adultery is made punishable by a hundred lashes but that's balanced by another fence which is the false accusations of adultery to make punishable by eighty lashes and then there's a fourth offense which is violent disorder which is as good a whole range of punishments on which stretch from exile overlap to crucifixion which incidentally i should say isn't a penalty that their muslims invented as a penalty which they are barred from the romans and persians to make great strides with chris fiction of the previous few centuries so the crime of adultery is punishable well with some two hundred lashes but to prove adultery he needed for eyewitnesses to the act or the adulterer had to confess four times then naturally or he was an adulterer so it is a high level of evidence there required before patient show the net something wished faisal the old criminal offenses in the ground that it requires that the high level of proof required witness testimony and impulsive one should note that this is this is a time the seventh century was a time when not in the google to europe and the best judicial safeguards they had that was twelve i will deal with this is when even used criminal cases at at at at that point in european history english trial by ordeal trial bible deals on bicycles on call directly to to not reveal who was innocently was guilty by for example if you suspected of a crime you might have to run the ad in the dvd eb white down in the portal and if you rise to the top then you will guilty if he sank your lessons and that became famous in my two years as the dunking of which is an old twelve idea might also require that that you carry a red-hot iron ball and if you managed to do that without of the stuff you what innocent the eyes of god and therefore you'd be released from site to the methods of trial that will be used by europeans at the time were anything but informs him save in seventh century terms the that the rules laid down in the koran were of the liberal remark be progressive in the several states have tried to make sharia law it is illegal in england sharia law is practiced by islamic councils and there's about eighty five sharia councils in england is a little bit about that system and working disputes these councils settle sure it is a matter of considerable controversy of it because the ideas begun to spread that these sharia courts of which i which are imposing sharia goal bound as of explained the sharia is that it's it's it's it or encompassing way of looking at the world and these qualities on its imposing of the hard-line interpretations of islam and all the criminal penalties in the dictations and studies of his buddies are doing is is if muslims voluntarily approach them and say that they have disputes which they want to be resolved then and alteration bodies will agree to what we will offer them a dispute resolution procedure is another situation which they used quite often where women are abandoned muslim women are abandoned by their husbands and in islamic rule of men are entitled to marry four times per women on given the same rivage say what the abuse that is seen quite often is that memo abandoned that spouses but but but why bother going through the motions of divorce because they knighted in the eyes of dog that both me by k2 to marry again what that means for devout woman is in the eyes of god as far as she's concerned if she and his mother relationship she commits adultery is that basically the side and then by and so what some of these tribunals dues they offer these women was cold a and annulments of the march which frees them to to to to marry again in the eyes of god saved in event potentially very benign institutions is been a lot of controversy about them as being this is been suggestions that actually far less but the benign that for them in line and in those nice suggestions come from local comparables the physical spectrum is not just not islamic by to say that this pension fund of of feminists to who could size will not based as well as far as i'm concerned the critiques is wrongheaded to the dog does is very very little evidence that that kind of abuse action takes place that is a farce it does take place it's far better that these things take place in the underdog in public scrutiny and public bodies which compete wood which can be judged which can be seen from what would it which can be seen by the general public than they take place behind closed doors which is what would it which is what would happen if if if they did if these bodies didn't exist beyond the of the ushered say is that the muslim arbitration tribunal for example one of these alteration bodies is subject to legal visuals of the land subject to the human rights act which is which equivalents of the of the united states but of rights is subject to the children's act which takes the rights of children it's it subject to judicial review which means that we challenged him to violation of any orbiting old old old old ideas of natural justice in the high court and again these remedies and the safeguards wouldn't exist if these is if these tribunals weren't allowed to exist is one of the concerns that some of these sharia councils might might be runner and all being run by extremist who are using an extremist highly punitive interpretation of sharia law i think a second one the concerns of enough the main concern that what isn't emphasized enough is that these tribunals are entirely voluntary and it's crucial that they remain that way i'd never support islamic tribunal check compulsory jurisdiction i that anyone at these tribunals of that for people who want to use their services and is a farce is a suggestion of intimidation the removal of many canals operates as a remedy to protect against that of the that there is a concern that this somehow way to smugly hard-line interpretations of islamic rule that i take the view that if these tribunals exist they've got to justify the choices that they make about islamic rule that got justified for example discriminated it confers on both if they choose to apply rules which discriminate trade they go to justify the potential nickel to justify him before the high court 's violation of the human rights act nothing is filed that away for a multicultural society to proceed them to of batting these tribunals which would incidentally be a band which only apply to muslims because the jews and the christians ' liberty to government to take the disputes to religious tribunals and in the united kingdom are the other jewish and christian tribunals that still function in the older of the jewish tribunal is not is the best in i will still exist yet it's the justices that existed by the digits existed in the united kingdom for more than a century it's existed and in the united states for about as long i think and it governs a very similar range of matters in business disputes of markle disputes property disputes but subject to legal needles of the land and the people he called the people who call for the suppression of these islamic tribunals are effectively saying that only the islamic foods into the muslims who should be denied guilt changes take the disputes these bodies the country will be back in the second half of the show is no history of sharia law is called heaven on earth and carry gross and mrs. fresh air this is fresh air gross spoke with the docket country author of the new history of sharia law called heaven on earth his research taken to south asia iran and the middle east country is also the author of a book about western law called the trial is a human rights barrister in england and a muslim by birth his father is from india one of the countries country travel to a researching the book so we've been talking about how she realized practiced in england through muslim tribunals and that has to answer to the larger human rights laws and the british legal system in general to have it right to us right up okay so i'm interested in your take on the united states and you he studied law in the united states to work with the aclu here you're certified yet by the new york state board to practice law here so you know something about american line you've also written a history of western law so in the non-american in you know a lot about american law in twenty ten oklahoma voters by about seventy percent passed a referendum banning the state courts from using sharia law or other international law that was overturned by a federal court thing about twelve states have had referendums on sharia law or have referendums pending so that look to you from a friend from your point of view.

And try to work out where people like to have excited it just looks crazy basically because it said it's the same issue that i've been to those who cannot convince his that his ideas of the sharia is some kind of blueprint for the takeover of the united states old but that it ate at that at that conspiracy to to advertise american freedoms that isn't what the sharia is that all set the hard-line interpretations of islamic rule but these measures study even claim to not to restrict themselves to that i claimed to prevent courts from taking any account at school of the sharia on which potentially means that the cool comfort zone pulled but take account of someone's will if someone says that they that they want to to be that buried according to the muslim rituals they done the study of uncle went theoretically at least i'm not builds take counts that the cause is possible to say well that's not what rules aimed at the mosaic something very different but you guys as lawyers known as everyone should know by now liberties begin to erode when you have rules which to wipe the drool and those which say that under no circumstances can the court take any account of the sharia of all necessarily discriminate trade and necessarily i've ruled and they necessarily create communal dissension for no good purpose because it's it's it's perceived by muslims as an attack on islam it's it's not a good signal the members of his currency was " very few muslims against the vitals than the other way and i am absolutely sure that many of the people who support the goals didn't even pass on the sponsors a genuinely motivated by fear of islamic extremism at united fund chooses the soft chalk fifth of august around september eleven fund and and him to on seventh there in london when i'm when islamic extremists blew lots of people out i'm so i'm setting a friend of of violent extremism i'm from muslims but these rules don't target that they just they simply target the body of beliefs that most in school the sharia to my knowledge no equivalent in the mirror to the islamic councils that function in england and that are overseen by the british legal system and at my missing something in america the dad yes it's perfectly possible for islamic arbitrations take place in the united states and i don't know the details of how often it occurs but i'm sure that it doesn't cover the unites states since the nineteen eighties supreme court has positively cars the use of arbitration by religious communities it's said that is not the business of colts to to get involved in religious arbitrations and that i will be upheld again that subject to all the orderly sections of the market and more like the bill of rights and the american constitution as well as his work as well as relevant state provisions that but it arbitrations are upheld in the united states and there upheld that the jews in the end but they didn't in the best inns on and i am sure that out of muslims as well so i can united states and in england how do you take into account that there are radical extremists and that some of those radical extremists would probably like to apply the harshest laws possible to locate perceived as a mom as soon as and your crimes against the profit and not you that might include accident modesty or other something that they would interpret as blasphemy what will you do what you've always done this kind of others on the one hand you out role acts which a violence for which it will i joined that is other people to the extent that they that they have a criminal offenses and the other thing you do is you argue vociferously against them on faith that advocating alternates which you find unpleasant old list to customize this if someone argues with me on foreign subtest is islamic to which i find unpleasant and i would argue against that person on the budget by not passing going to say that there augments should uniquely not be heard that that's that's just not the located outside of western democracy operates so you are up you said you specialized in human rights law student you have no human rights concerns about islamic councils in england or their equivalent in the united states i have plenty of human rights concerns about about interpretations of islamic law if it if it turns out that in islamic body has compelled the woman against her will to abandon property rights for example old to submit to harsh violence at the hands the husband and be outraged just these things never seem to prove that the accusations of put out that when people point to the one bus of the carranza couple of updates which potentially i justify mistreatment of women because they because they were set down in the seventh century of the eight central ninth century but the only evidence that links those interpretations of islamic rule is populous islamic title if i can should note to that point there is one case in the united states which which slightly contradict cites a case from new jersey of the date of his is a few couple years back i'm wet a judge of the judge was considering a dispute between a husband and wife and for some inexplicable reason he acceded to the husbands claim that he was divinely authorized to write his wife now that as far as i'm concerned is an outrageous proposition is outrageous prohibited it would be considered an outrageous proposition by most muslims in my opinion but the judge he wasn't a muslim i did accede to that claim but it went up to appeal but it was i've turned on and that's what should be that's the only case that i'm aware of the united states or england whack a hardline interpretation of islam islamic militia via whatever you want to call it did attain some kind of judicial recognition but the legal system did what it was meant to correct itself and on appeal if you're just joining us my justice adopted country he's the author of the new book heaven on earth a journey through sharia law from the deserts of ancient arabia to the streets of the modern muslim world let's separate i will talk some more about the history and contemporary practice of sharia law is fresh air if it is joining us my guess is adopted country and he's a barrister in england he specializes in human rights law and his new book is called heaven on earth a journey through sharia law from the deserts of ancient arabia to the streets of the modern muslim world is also the author of a previous book about the history of western law he studied law at harvard law school you have your masters degree from there and you read it when you are studying in the united states you were surprised at how some conservatives attribute almost godly powers to the founding fathers is in thinking that god had minute manifested his will through their deeds in that the founding fathers possessed incontestable wisdom and that you're also surprised by conservative judges who think that their interpretation of the law should be based on thinking what the founding fathers would have done in that situation with the founding fathers thought when the constitution was written would you could expand on why that surprised you and tell if and how that relates to this book on sharia law show well is that encounter god and go to original intent and done at that night on the surprises me because it sits sits the number of justices in very high places them on supreme court in fact to subscribe to that view the constitution the reason is relevant to islamic rule and the reason i'm mentioning my book is because is very similar argument in islamic jurisprudence the alternate is that the first generation of muslims as a group that is the ancestors the selloff were possessed of an incontestable and divinely guided wisdom and because of that their interpretations of the sharia which should trump everything else and that idea the idea that this veneration of the selloff which show which is associated with a group of muslims known as the selloff is the selloff via has made great headway in recent years that's been linked in some people 's minds with this idea that the sharia is about mom 's and it's about compulsion and say what you get is this veneration for a tradition being linked to a desire for compulsion and the simple reality is in my opinion we cannot know what these people fought and said he didn't know whether we talked about seven center with talk about the eighteenth century in the united states and so that's the analogy that i drool and the consequences i think of the same as well society changes so obvious point but it's one that can't be repeated often enough society changes and our interpretations of the mole have to move not to change the mold simply said we will continue to do the same things as a was down nothing you write in the prologue to your book about sharia law of heaven under the right let it be necessary to say so and it probably is the start is not intended any point to challenge the sacred stature of the prophet mohammed the self evident appeal of islam or the almighty ms. of god it seeks instead to recall the history that attended the elucidation of islamic law and to demonstrate that over the years legal rules have often been rewritten or ignored in the name of the sharia so what you feel is necessary to say it to make this disclaimer that the book is not intent it is not intended to challenge the sacred stature of the prophet or the appeal of islam well knew what one reason that the others are not coming there a lot of the crazy people out there and they're all set the muslims who would take extreme exception to a book which to challenge any of those things and i'm not out to offend people are not out to insult people least of all muslims i consider myself a muslim but what did six disclaimer to the extent that i pointing out what i'm not contesting i'm not all gained about the fundamentals of islam what i'm marketing about is the interpretation has been put on the fundamentals of the last fourteen hundred years and what a monkey about his interpretations of islamic tool that are being presented as sacred by hard-liners and and in fact i think should be a part of proper subject for debate and what i want to do with the book is avoid superfluous arguments about silly things i'm which is so awful is with books about islam the people stopped all give out about this vessel that person the ground is this a default that these are not budgeted for this sterol alternates as far as i'm concerned as part of your research for your book on the history of sharia law you went to several all muslim countries to do research on how sharia law is being applied now which countries did you go to i started my bugs but they soon get i went pakistan iran syria lebanon and i ended up in egypt example of him totally different interpretation of sharia law from one country to another.

Well of the list this site many exit in one one particularly at all to this area from which i encountered was in pakistan bucks towns that had it at a desperate country of night and it's it's riddled with social problems and of course this is a war among its border with honest on that some as a result of that religious doctrines and hardline religious doctrines into making great headway and one of things i have usually shocked me was some was when i was speaking to a religious scholar about adultery he was in fact the capacity rises subject understanding of adulterers and i certainly know what's who do is shoot shortage right to him fifty and adults from texas to extend messy in the circumstances and the stress is said to me that i'm not only was it was not right to extend messy but it would be positively sinful to extend massey is in the situation because the penalty was mandatory it was a divine penalty and the shari'a itself required an adult should be stunned today i found that absolutely shocking bits here there are plenty of other interpretations which is not benign at least consider more flexible and is one of the very first class cleric met in a wrong was that the chap who i met in the context of a debate about the the banning of sales in europe and i listened this debate with the kind of sinking feeling because i just talked myself a night like i think of the bands and the that those countries of japan sales in europe of going about things completely wrong way and and and all discriminate against muslims by the statistic this debate with a sinking feeling because i just just it's it's it's very predictable others to guide people to attack the west for its hypocrisy and for some and an first double standards but this cart put his hand up and he said zombies was all very well what they do in europe but what about what we do in this country why we've all seen people to web files us against the sharia that we not we might as well to pray and not up to me was extremely surprising because you have led to people i'd met before there's a great thing take it would be a great thing to full speed to prey on people i've met in pakistan but that this is cleric in iran took diametrically opposed opinions.

During human rights lawyer and england and me ) some places you trap out in your travels to the muslim world researching sharia law that you were treated with suspicion because you are a human rights lawyer can example of that yet show on was this two things festival is just a general suspicion and not cause the muslim world about the notion of human rights because as far as they're concerned human rights just a cover for western hypocrisy and the are not.

So naïve that i comes is that they have plans to set the extent innovation in areas where i'm which of which being subjected to and bombardment and invasion and occupation on the idea that that that the west uniquely denies that human rights is is going to be looked at with some suspicion that is another reason as well which is a theological reason is that arises out of an aspect of islamic jurisprudence is how jurisprudence distinguishes between two types of right the first is the car lobby the rights of god and those are considered to be crimes which need be punished and then their human rights and human rights all things which humans can properly decide between themselves is as far as islamic jurisprudence is concerned is already dealt with the subject of human rights it doesn't need to be told by weston is how humans should manage their fat as to i actually in the but try to avoid the use italian rights not because i don't subscribe to the values concerned but just because i think it's another of those words which doesn't necessarily convey the meaning and parts must involves adults to too many westerners what i want to thank you very much for talking with us thank you for traveling said that the country is the author of the history of sharia law called heaven on earth you can read an excerpt on our website fresh air npr coming up ten tucker reviews loudon wainwright 's new album of songs about aging this fresh air